CANADA

On the Order:  3

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cowan, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:  4

      That a Special Committee on Senate Modernization be appointed to consider methods to make the Senate more effective within the current constitutional framework;  4-1

      That the committee be composed of fifteen members, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, and that five members constitute a quorum;  4-2

      That the committee have the power to send for persons, papers and records; to examine witnesses; and to publish such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the committee;  4-3

      That the committee be authorized to hire outside experts;  4-4

      That, notwithstanding rule 12-18(2)(b)(i), the committee have the power to sit from Monday to Friday, even though the Senate may then be adjourned for a period exceeding one week; and  4-5

      That the committee be empowered to report from time to time and to submit its final report no later than June 1, 2016.  4-6

Hon. Claude Carignan (Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, I am pleased to speak today about the motion to create a Special Committee on Senate Modernization. The motion was moved yesterday by my colleague, the Honourable Senator Cowan.  5

I would like to comment on the two main elements of this motion: first, the modernization framework; and second, the pursuit of a more effective Senate.  5-1

I would like to begin by emphasizing that we agree on the need to modernize the Senate within the existing constitutional framework.  5-2

We know that, pursuant to the Constitution Act of 1982, substantial changes in the Senate would require the agreement of seven provinces, representing 50 per cent of the population of Canada.  5-3

However, important changes to the Senate can be made without resorting to constitutional amendments.  5-4

Let me quote John B. Stewart, who said that "the House is master of its own proceedings. ... what the House does while in session, and how it does ... are matters to be decided by the House itself."  5-5

In other words, honourable senators, the special committee would be an outgrowth of the Senate's power to change its own rules and conventions to reflect our modern era and enable us to adapt to it. This would not require any legislative measures, just the agreement of the Senate.  5-6

To make the Senate more effective, this special committee should consider ways to make the Senate transparent and cost- effective.  5-7

Among other initiatives such as expanding the Senate's role to include an investigative, anticipating, and critical problem-solving role as outlined in the essay's chapter Whence from here?  n5-7

How can transparency be addressed in the 21st century?  5-8

Technological developments are proliferating, and we must find new ways to enhance our institution's presence in the digital era. We need to think about how digital technology can help us innovate.  5-9

We also have to come up with new ways to let people know about the excellent work done by senators, who are often forgotten.  5-10

I would also like to point out that, after what happened this morning, thanks to social media, CBC reported this on its website:  5-11

      Liberals' 1st money bill sent to Senate missing essential information.  5-12

In her introduction, the reporter wrote:  5-13

      For Canadians who think of the Senate as a sleepy old place where nothing gets done, today might change their minds.  5-14

      This morning, an eagle-eyed senator discovered that the House of Commons passed a key money bill yesterday that was deeply flawed.  5-15

Bravo, eagle eyes. That's good.  5-16

New technologies should be used to ensure that Canadians understand more clearly the important role the Senate plays in Parliament and in the country. Voices from the various regions of Canada must continue to be heard in the legislative process, as the Senate has always represented concerns and issues from minority groups and the far-flung regions of Canada.  5-17

Having ministers come to the Senate for Question Period to answer our questions, as set out in the motion that I moved and the Senate adopted this week, will enable senators to get more up- to-date information.  5-18

Might not parliamentary secretaries stand in for the mnisters? Just wondering.  n5-18

Should we incorporate this new procedure into the Rules? Should we, as Senator Joyal suggested, invite officers of Parliament to come answer our questions, particularly when they present important reports on government activities?  5-19

We should again reflect on the best way to improve transparency, which will contribute to boosting public confidence in the Senate and raising the profile of the important work done by senators.  5-20

Cost-effectiveness is also essential to sustain public confidence in our Parliament. This special committee must do its work through the lens of cost-effectiveness and the responsible use of taxpayers' money. An effective Senate must be an institution that handles money in a prudent manner.  5-21

I want to thank Senator Cowan for moving this motion to modernize the Senate. I also want to acknowledge the work of our previous speakers, Senator Nolin and Senator Housakos, who undertook the challenge of reforming the Senate.  5-22

Let's live up to the legacy we've inherited from them.  5-23

Let me conclude by quoting John B. Stewart, when he said:  5-24

      ... a body's procedures—how it works—are means; no matter how old and hallowed, they need reviewing and evaluation from time to time to ascertain that they are fostering, not deterring, the performance of the body's function."  5-25

In other words, procedures must sometimes be reviewed and evaluated in order to strengthen the performance of the institution they serve.  5-26

Honourable senators, I would like all of us to support this motion so that we can transform the Senate into a modern, effective 21st century institution that will restore Canadians' confidence in this legislative body.  5-27

Hon. John D. Wallace: Will Senator Carignan accept a question?  6

Senator Carignan: Yes.  7

Senator Wallace: Thank you for your comments, Senator Carignan. As with you, I want to congratulate Senators Massicotte and Greene for the initiative they took to bring forward these ideas, which we'll see more of in the near future, about modernization. But there is one particular aspect of Senator Cowan's motion that you support that is of particular interest to me: that the special committee would consist of 15 members.  8

As you may recall—you weren't in the chamber; maybe you wouldn't recall—I brought a motion earlier this week dealing with the representation of all members of this chamber on committees and, in particular, independent members.  8-1

This is a 15-member committee, and I am concerned about what representation will be provided to independents to serve on that committee. The majority control in this chamber, of course, resides with the Conservatives members and, as a result, you're able to have considerable influence, if not total influence, over who is able to sit on committees and chair committees and so on. That's a reality.  8-2

It's sort of ironic the way this happened, but I presented my motion on Wednesday dealing with the motion to consider how members of this chamber would be represented on committees, and not an hour before I made that motion the Committee of Selection presented its list of suggested appointees to the various committees.  8-3

"Interesting" probably don't describe it, but I was interested and then some to see that, of independents—the most recent independents—other than Senator McCoy and Senator Cools, none were represented on any committees, including me.  8-4

Again, I realize that the control over these issues, where all of that resides, is a major concern.  8-5

In my own situation, I had sent a letter to all the members of the Selection Committee this Monday indicating my preference. I realize that, just because you have your preference, doesn't mean you necessarily are accepted, but I indicated my preference to be a member of the Legal Committee and the Energy Committee. Perhaps my qualifications and professional background didn't match up to what was needed.  8-6

In any event, what was pretty clear from all of that is that the most recent independents, if I can call them that, were not given representation on any committee.  8-7

Having said that, I think the warning signs are out there to be concerned about how the independents are going to be represented on this special committee.  8-8

Maybe I will just, very quickly, give you these facts. I think they're quite relevant to what I'm talking about. At present, there are 45 Conservative senators in this chamber—not present today, but there are 45—29 Liberals and 9 independents. By June 30 of this year, when you consider additional retirements that will occur and the new appointments for the 22 vacancies that exist, it will then be 44 Conservatives, 27 Liberals, and 34 independents. Potentially that could happen. So the number of independents would exceed even the number of Liberals. When you extend that out and look to a little bit over a year down the road, 2017, potentially the number of independents in this chamber will exceed even the number of Conservatives. The number of independents could well represent the majority in this chamber.  8-9

So my question for you, Senator Carignan, is: faced with those realities, what would your thoughts be as to how the independents should be represented on this special committee that Senator Cowan has proposed?  8-10

Senator Carignan: I would like to thank the senator for his question. Perhaps we should remember that senators don't get their first choice just because they belong to a parliamentary group. I remember very well that when you were part of our group, you didn't necessarily get placed where you wanted. That is the case in this situation.  9

Senators make their wishes known, but obviously there are only a certain number of spots on each committee. If we chose committee members based exclusively on senators' wishes, then we would have too many people on some committees and not enough people or none at all on others. Establishing and creating committees requires a certain amount of coordination.  9-1

With regard to the Selection Committee, you saw the motion that gives the Selection Committee the mandate to nominate 15 people. I could see independent senators sitting on the special committee, particularly independent senators who have been in that position for many years and who have had the opportunity to actually experience being independent. They know some of the obstacles that go along with that, and they have had experiences that will allow them to identify areas for improvement.  9-2

I realize that you have been through a difficult situation, but I am certain that the independent senators have experienced many difficulties.  9-3

I must nevertheless point out that, unlike the other place, the Senate attributes much more importance to the role of independent senators in committees and in this chamber. In the other place, as we saw from the newspaper headlines, 10 Bloc Québécois members were elected. They are considered to be independents, like the elected members of the Green Party, and they don't have the right to sit on a committee. Those are their rules. Things are different here.  9-4

With regard to the procedural details of the Selection Committee insofar as they pertain to what was adopted here this week, I would remind you that there is a formality—which, in my opinion, the special committee on Senate modernization should examine—whereby an individual who is a member of a parliamentary group and is appointed to a committee can be replaced by decision of the group's leadership.  9-5

However, if an independent senator is appointed, the decision is irrevocable, and that person cannot be replaced and cannot switch to another committee.  9-6

This can result in certain inconsistencies in the management and composition of the committees, hence the decision and the practice to have the Selection Committee fill the positions and then to assign independent senators to the committees through substitution rather than appointment in due form from the outset in the motion to create committees.  9-7

That is one technical aspect that definitely needs to be modernized, and perhaps our modernization committee could exa8-8mine that. As I said, I hope that some independent senators will be on that committee, especially those with a great deal of experience.  9-8

Senator Wallace: Would Senator Carignan accept one further brief question?  10

Senator Carignan: Yes.  11

Senator Wallace: Thank you. I was interested in everything you had to say, but one comment in particular caught my attention. You seem to differentiate between independent senators—and I would take from that you mean Senators McCoy and Cools, who have been here for some time—and distinguish them on some basis from others, which would include me—those who have been of a more recent vintage.  12

That's an interesting proposition, because there are 22 vacancies to be filled; there will be 22 new senators to enter this chamber. I would hope you're not suggesting that we're going to have at least three different categories of senators, and somehow all of that gets factored into it.  12-1

I wonder if you have any further comments on that.  12-2

Senator Carignan: In my view, all senators are senators. Some are affiliated with caucuses governed by rules that have existed, in some cases, since this Parliament was created. The purpose of this motion is to create a special committee whose membership would be determined by the selection committee. What I would hope for, as a senator, is that there would be a certain number of members who, I hope, would sit on this special committee to modernize the Senate rules.  13

Furthermore, I think it is worth pointing out the importance of the enormous contribution that could be made by some of our senators with the most seniority, particularly Senator McCoy and Senator Cools, who have been affected by this independence, which is not without its irritants. Their rich experience within the Senate could certainly help us improve the conditions and the rules governing independent senators.  13-1

The issue of the role of independent senators as discussed above would, I believe, fall within the mandate of the Special Committee on Modernizing the Senate. Our Senate will go through a transitional period about more is found in the essay, see Managing the transition . It is perhaps well to bear in mind that I perceive two functionally distinct groups of senators tentatively named "citzens' representatives" and "complex problem solvers" even though they vote as equals whenever a vote is held. This topic is dicussed in three chapters: Optimizing effectiveness: Solving complex problems, Senators who representCanadians directly ("Citizens' representatives"), and Senators who represent Canadians indirectly ("Complex-problem solvers").  n13-1

Hon. Paul J. Massicotte: Honourable senators, first of all, I would like to congratulate our Speaker on his appointment. I truly believe that you are exactly the right person for the job, Mr. Speaker.  14

Before I address Senator Cowan's motion to create a special committee in pursuance of our continued necessary efforts for the modernization of the Senate, I would like to speak to you about our three-day meeting, the working sessions on Senate modernization, that took place in late October and that were led and organized by Senator Greene and me, assisted by Senator Tannas and Senator Campbell.  14-1

Thirty-eight senators accepted our invitation to take part in these sessions. Conservative, independent, and independent Liberal senators all shared a desire to improve the operation and the practices of this legislative body. All senators were invited to participate about four months before the event.  14-2

The purpose of our working sessions was to share different ideas and approaches to make the Senate more effective in carrying out its constitutional responsibilities and in better fulfilling the reasonable expectations of Canadians.  14-3

To prepare for these meetings, in early August we gave all senators a detailed 12-page questionnaire on the modernization of the Senate, which basically guided our discussions. The answers to these questions helped us identify 10 common threads for which non-constitutional changes could potentially be made, with the consent of a strong majority of participants.  14-4

Over the course of the three-day meeting, the participants thoroughly debated 10 topics focused on democracy and the operation of the Senate.  14-5

These discussions led to 11 recommendations supported by a strong majority of the sessions' participants. Those recommendations were then presented to our respective leadership and caucuses. I should add that the independent Senate Liberal caucus largely supported these recommendations by consensus. I understand the Conservative caucus recently met to also discuss these recommendations. I look forward to hearing about their results and their commitment to a better Senate.  14-6

Having said such, in spite of possible minority opposition, I urge our Senate leaders to seriously undertake the necessary steps to formally have the Senate approve and implement most, if not all, of those recommendations. There is no reason to further delay or to subject these recommendations to further committee study. No excuses, please. For far too long we have remained inactive and we have let down ourselves, our government and, foremost, Canadians when faced with difficult and pressing issues. Our inability to address these concerns has greatly compromised the reputation and legitimacy of this chamber.  14-7

I do recognize that it may be quite possible to take the modernization of the Senate beyond the recommendations issued from our working sessions, and indeed we will have to do so in order to improve our efficiency. It makes sense to delve into certain important issues, such as holding free votes on all bills for all senators, preventing senators from participating in their national caucuses, and addressing other structural issues that we did not discuss or on which we failed to reach the necessary consensus during our working sessions.  14-8

There is much work to be done, and we must act now. Time is of the essence. We cannot allow provisions of the Rules or supposed obstacles to delay or impede our progress. With a majority vote in this place, nothing like that can stand in our way.  14-9

We senators who have worked in this chamber and who have seen its worst and best have the ability and are most capable of developing and implementing the necessary measures to improve its operations and procedures. We must remain vigilant and tireless in order to achieve meaningful results toward a better Senate.  14-10

We realize that change is never simple or easy. There is a strong desire to maintain the status quo, which we must overcome, and we need to examine and debate a number of opinions, options and nuances.  14-11

With that perspective, I support and I encourage you to support the motion moved by Senator Cowan to strike a special committee on Senate modernization in order to study unresolved points of discussion and what is needed for modernization. This initiative should be a priority and the committee should receive the necessary cooperation to accomplish its mandate.  14-12

In closing, now that all senators and Senate caucuses have received and been fully briefed on the working sessions and their results, and now that the sessions have been mentioned on numerous occasions in the Senate chamber, allow me, with the Senate's permission, to deposit the document of the working sessions in this chamber. It respects the Chatham House Rule of discussion as undertaken with the participants.  14-13

This report on the working sessions contains the questionnaire that was used to determine opinions and issues in advance of the sessions, an analysis in chart form of the answers to the questionnaire, a list of the 10 issues that deserved detailed discussion and debate, and finally a list of consensus resolutions that came out of the sessions as recommendations for all senators, leaders and caucuses.  14-14

It is worth quoting one of those questions: "Do you also believe that Senators' fundamental role and purpose includes work on Senate Committees to study and report on matters relevant to our society, to seek and achieve the best possible Committee reports? If not, please explain how you see this role and Committee work." This response was one of two on which there was a resounding 100 percent agreement. (Ref.). In the light of such a response, it is astonishing that the issue of "fundametal role and purpose" has been ignored up to this point.  n14-14

As you are aware, all senators have had this information for some time; I note without any leaks to the media.  14-15

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Massicotte, did you wish leave to table the document?  15

Senator Massicotte: Yes.  16

The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted?  17

Hon. Senators: Agreed.  18

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, is it your pleasure that the sitting now be suspended during pleasure to await the arrival of His Excellency the Governor General?  19

Hon. Senators: Agreed.  20

(The Senate adjourned during pleasure.)  21

Debate resumed.  22

On the Order:  23

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cowan, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:  24

      That a Special Committee on Senate Modernization be appointed to consider methods to make the Senate more effective within the current constitutional framework;  24-1

      That the committee be composed of fifteen members, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, and that five members constitute a quorum;  24-2

      That the committee have the power to send for persons, papers and records; to examine witnesses; and to publish such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the committee;  24-3

      That the committee be authorized to hire outside experts;  24-4

      That, notwithstanding rule 12-18(2)(b)(i), the committee have the power to sit from Monday to Friday, even though the Senate may then be adjourned for a period exceeding one week; and  24-5

      That the committee be empowered to report from time to time and to submit its final report no later than June 1, 2016.  24-6

Hon. Stephen Greene: Honourable senators, I wish to express my congratulations to our new Speaker and also to the excellent work that Senator Housakos performed while he was here. His work here defined, in my view, short but sweet, and I appreciate his work very much.  25

I also thank Senator Massicotte for his speech in support of Senator Cowan's motion. I want to begin by saying that with regard to organizing an event like the working sessions, Senator Massicotte makes the ideal dance partner. He is a person of impeccable integrity, and he's always open to new ideas.  25-1

I want to also express my thanks to Senator Tannas and Senator Campbell.  25-2

My initial comment in response to Senator Massicotte is to praise the motion put forward by Senator Cowan, which is similar if not identical to the motion proposed by Senator Nolin. As good and welcome as the motion is, I have three pieces of advice.  25-3

My first advice about the motion is that it projects a report by June 1. I would like to see a report well in advance of that date and urge a report, if the committee can manage it, by April 1 at the latest. The problem with the June 1 date is that it lands in a typically busy month and only a few weeks before we adjourn. There probably won't be time to have much debate, much less any implementation. April, on the other hand, is not such a busy month. There is no clock that is ticking, and there would be time to debate and implement a few things. If the working sessions could do all it did in three days, then I think that we can proceed a little bit quicker on our committee.  25-4

My second bit of advice is that I hope the committee will be made up of at least one fully independent senator appointment, and I wish to thank Senator Carignan for his remarks in this regard.  25-5

My third advice is that the committee take into account the views of all senators in writing its report. Whether this is done via questionnaire, individual meetings, group meetings or all of these is not for me to say at this time, but it shouldn't be just the collected wisdom of the committee members. In other words, we shouldn't treat this as just a normal committee in which we rely on the opinions of outside experts. Senators, the people in this room, are the experts. To achieve buy-in, all of us must participate.  25-6

I was glad to hear from Senator Massicotte on the endorsement of the independent Liberal caucus for the working session. The Conservative caucus has spent one meeting so far devoted to discussion of the ideas developed by the working sessions. This caucus meeting served to separate where there was agreement from what required more discussion. We will have another caucus meeting planned for when we return in January, when we will continue with these discussions.  25-7

I am confident that much of what the working sessions have produced will inform the subject matter of the proposed committee. I am also encouraged by several of the initiatives begun in the Senate this week that would see implementation of reforms agreed to already by the working sessions.  25-8

In closing, I ask the powers that be to take note of my advice and I urge the swift passage of Senator Cowan's motion.  25-9

Merry Christmas and God bless.  25-10

The Hon. the Speaker: Are honourable senators ready for the question?  26

Hon. Senators: Question.  27

The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?  28

Hon. Senators: Agreed.  29

Motion agreed to.  30